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Bedrock Talks from Bedrock Learning
Welcome to Bedrock Talks, a podcast from the team at Bedrock Learning that delves deep into the heart of literacy in education. Hosted by the insightful and experienced educator Andy Sammons, this podcast stands as a beacon for anyone passionate about enhancing literacy skills and understanding its pivotal role in education.
Each episode is a journey into the world of literacy education. Andy brings together a diverse array of voices from across the education sector, from seasoned teachers to renowned academics, policy makers to literacy advocates. All of our guests share a common goal: to explore and expand the horizons of literacy education.
We go beyond surface-level conversations. Our discussions are in-depth, nuanced, and filled with insights that only years of experience and expertise can bring. We tackle a wide range of topics, from innovative teaching methods to the latest research in literacy, the impact of technology on reading and writing, to strategies for engaging diverse learners. Our aim is to provide a platform where the complexities of literacy are unpacked and understood in a way that is both accessible and enlightening.
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Bedrock Talks from Bedrock Learning
39. Disciplinary Literacy in Primary Settings with Shareen Wilkinson
Could disciplinary literacy be the missing piece in primary education? Prepare to have your assumptions challenged as education advisor Shareen Wilkinson reveals how young learners can benefit from thinking, reading, and writing like subject specialists – years before secondary school.
Most educators associate disciplinary literacy with secondary education. Yet, when implemented thoughtfully in primary settings, this approach builds crucial background knowledge that supports comprehension far beyond basic phonics. Shareen explains how primary schools can adopt age-appropriate disciplinary practices without overwhelming either teachers or pupils.
The secret lies in starting with stories. By using carefully selected books to introduce disciplinary concepts, teachers can build mental schemas that make later learning stick. As Natalie Wexler famously noted, "knowledge is sticky" – and disciplinary approaches provide the perfect adhesive. Through practices like modelling subject-specific language and focused writing opportunities, even young children can begin thinking like historians, scientists, and mathematicians.
What makes this approach particularly powerful is its focus on quality over quantity. Rather than frequent disciplinary writing, teachers might plan just a few purposeful opportunities throughout the year where pupils can "show off what they know." Interestingly, Shareen reports that many children actually prefer these assignments because they emphasise content knowledge rather than literacy mechanics.
For educators considering implementation, Shareen offers practical advice on training staff, selecting appropriate texts, and integrating disciplinary practices into existing curricula. Whether you're a classroom teacher looking for new strategies or a school leader planning curriculum development, this conversation provides valuable insights into how disciplinary literacy can transform primary education.
Ready to explore how disciplinary literacy might work in your setting? Listen now to discover what could be the closest thing education has to a silver bullet for building knowledge and closing gaps.
Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us again on Bedrock Talks. My name is Andy Sammons. I'm the host. I lead teaching and learning here at Bedrock. We've got another really brilliant guest today. We've got Shereen Wilkinson, who is an education advisor, is an executive director of education for a multi-academy trust Some of the schools which I think have had Bedrock at some stage, which is awesome, and I came across Shereen um online again, um and she's just about to release a book called disciplinary literacy in primary schools and that piqued my interest because of my own children in primary school but also the work we do with mapper and our primary schools, and it really got me thinking about.
Speaker 1:We've never really had a proper conversation on the pod about really how we do disciplinary literacy in primary schools, primary schools. Often, you know, we think about phonics and we think about, you know, making sure that young people can decode and are relatively fluent by the time they get to secondary. But I think, where curriculum is at the moment, we need to develop a slightly more nuanced pattern of thinking around primary schools. So I reached out to Shireen, who's really kindly agreed to give up some time to speak to us today. So thank you so much for coming on. It's amazing that you're here, thank you.
Speaker 2:No problem, andy. I'm really excited to talk about primary and disciplinary literacy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can tell, I had a quick chat with Shireen prior to the show recording and the only problem I had was that we could have gone on for hours before we started recording, just going back and forth about the whys and the wherefores of disciplinary literacy. So, yeah, amazing that you're here, thank you. I think I just want to start off the bat just by asking you why disciplinary literacy in primary schools?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really good question. It kind of came about quite randomly. So I attended a webinar a few years ago led by Professor Timothy Shanahan, and it was on disciplinary literacy in primary schools, and at the same time I wasn't leading on English anymore, because I led on English for about 20 years and I was given curriculum. So I thought to myself are you serious, I can take English into the curriculum because it's my favourite subject and I can do this. So that's kind of how it came about and I was really passionate about it. Then I did quite a lot of research around what aspects of disciplinary literacy can we use in primary, and is it too late just to introduce it in secondary? So I've just spent the last couple of years really exploring the not just the why, but the how, and how we can do that in primary schools.
Speaker 1:What was it inside you that thought? You know there's a need for disciplinary literacy in a primary setting Because, just playing devil's advocate, don't they just need to know how to write and do their handwriting and then do the odd newspaper report? You know what's the need for that layer of subject expertise in a primary school. What's the reasoning there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good question. So one of the first things I think it's important to say that when we're looking at disciplinary literacy in primary, we're not looking at full disciplinary literacy as we would in secondary, so we're looking at the aspects that will be really useful for children for building their knowledge, particularly their background knowledge, across the curriculum. And if you look at research by Graham and Herbert in 2010, writing actually has an impact on reading an oral language, and so if children are writing in the discipline, that will support them with their deeper subject knowledge, but will also support them with their reading comprehension, because, beyond phonics, background knowledge is important. So that was something I really wanted to explore.
Speaker 2:I think it's important also to understand that I might be using the term disciplinary literacy, but actually it might just be reading a story within the discipline. So we might be reading a story like coming to England with our very young children and that helps them to build that notion of migration or, you know, travel in history, and so what I've done is just spent the last couple of years just thinking about what aspects of disciplinary literacy are really important for children to build their background knowledge, but will also support them as they go into primary school. So there's real detail there in terms of what it could look like and to what extent, and it's not heavy in the primary school, it's absolutely linked to exactly what they do.
Speaker 1:And how much of what you've just described there this is going to sound a bit odd is foregrounding the background knowledge. So you've just mentioned about the, the novel that you just there. Are you foregrounding travel and migration as you're reading that and that would then class as what you're arguing is disciplinary literacy in a primary setting?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:So when I looked at the research, I looked at Shanahan, I looked at Caldwell, I looked at Condie, I looked, you know, 2016, 2023, they all said that we can develop disciplinary literacy right the way from early kindergarten, elementary school, through oral language and the stories we read to children.
Speaker 2:So I've taken that research and experimented and used that. I've also taken the research that Mary Myatt talks about in terms of stories to introduce concepts and merge those together, so almost distilled all of that research to something that we can have and put that in place across a number of our schools. And the children have really good background knowledge, really good understanding of a topic. And I think, andy, what's important here is to understand this notion of schema and schemas, building that mental model in the mind. And so if we can read books like Amy Gets Eaten, which is about the digestive system that children are going to cross when they get to year four but we've read it to them when they were younger we're building up because we build on what we already know and if something's really new to us, it makes it harder for us to learn.
Speaker 1:so um, natalie Wexler said that knowledge is sticky, and I think that's never more true. Um and I, I I think some colleagues might refer to this as the spiral curriculum you know the idea that you have these core concepts and, as as you know, I had a marvelous uh moment with my daughter last night.
Speaker 1:We were having dinner and all of a sudden, she looked up at me and said we've been learning about Nelson Mandela, dad yes and then she basically waded into this big narrative about he did this, but it was because of this and he was locked up because of this, and you could see that that story of his life was being laid as the foundation for her to learn about things like apartheid, racism and those types of things, and I suppose that's what you're describing, isn't it? It's not really about a revolution in what's going on in schools. It's more about a revolution of how we're choosing to foreground deliberately, in sequence, what we're teaching young people, right?
Speaker 2:absolutely, and so lots of the people who've read it, who've reviewed it or I've got seven case studies within the study will see that actually I've made it age appropriate and maybe that's the right word, that we're taking an age appropriate approach to disciplinary literacy that's really going to support pupils with their knowledge, their deeper knowledge of the subject, but also prepare them as they reach secondary school knowledge of the subject but also prepare them as they reach secondary school.
Speaker 1:I think that's fascinating and obviously now I think you know, for the benefit of, in terms of, I guess, all teachers, but particularly middle and senior leaders if you're starting, you know as your book as a starting point, what does implementing this look like in a primary school and a primary setting? We've touched on some of the things that it might look like and we'll get more into the teaching side of it later on. But for you, when it comes to implementing this, what's your advice to middle and senior leaders? Because I think what you've got here I don't say this lightly, I mean I mean this across all phases of education.
Speaker 1:I think if there is a silver bullet to making progress and bridging gaps and closing gaps, vocabulary and disciplinary literacy is as close to it. We've had the famous you know, just tell them, you know, we've had that over the years Brilliant book. Yes, I think it's brilliant and I think just giving them what they need in order to empower them is so critical. But how on earth do you do that as a middle or a senior leader in a primary setting? What's your advice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I've been really fortunate, andy, to actually have done it in practice, and I think that's one of the best things about doing the research but then putting it into practice because we can see the research. But if you've done it and you've multiplied that across a number of schools, then that, I think, is even more valuable. So the first thing is to just look at your gaps, like what do you need? Is it reading? Are the children reading across the disciplines? Are they writing across the disciplines? Reading across the disciplines? Are they writing across the disciplines? So the first thing I did was train up all of our headteachers or principals, we call them and it has to be a senior leader approach. So we had curriculum leads and deputy headteachers, vice principals, whatever schools choose to use them, and that was around what is disciplinary literacy and what is it not.
Speaker 2:So we looked at things like, for example, lots of people were writing in history but were writing like diaries in history or things that were English and just replicating English. But actually in history you're looking at cause and consequence. You're looking at synthesizing information, interpreting sources and actually, if you're going to write in history, interpreting sources and actually if you're going to write in history, particularly for our older key stage two pupils, then you need to be writing within that discipline and not replicating English. So the first thing is is to unpick what is disciplinary literacy and the second thing to unpick is what knowledge do you want your children to know and understand? You know, and in geography, is it human physical characteristics? In science, analyzing data, observations, I can say off the top of my head, and really unpicking each subject and understanding what is it? What knowledge and skills do the children need to know? Because that then becomes your writing, that becomes how you um orally, use your oral language across the curriculum. So that would be my first step is to find out what it is you need, but also to understand what it is in the disciplines. We started off, rightly or wrongly, with read aloud books and books to introduce concepts. So that was the first point. And then the second point was looking at how can we introduce writing across the curriculum that was purposeful and actually help children with their oral language and with their background knowledge.
Speaker 2:So in primary it's different to secondary it might be that you do a piece of writing that's within the discipline three times a year. It might be that you do a piece of writing within the discipline once a year. You've got to decide as a school. So the motto, if you like, is quality not quantity. I'd much rather a child wrote a couple of lines. Why is this character historically significant than you know? A long diary from the point of view of Mary Seacole. So it's about quality in primary. Diary from the point of view of Mary Seacole. So it's about quality in primary, not quantity. And the children cannot write until they've got the knowledge. So you've got to have taught them something over a number of weeks in order for them to show what they know and can do.
Speaker 1:I was just going to ask you there. I've planned curricula over a long period of time when I was directing English and had literacy with my literacy hat on as well, and what I found was you might only end up doing a piece of description once every eight months or whatever. I don't know. Whatever it is, how does that link with the concept of interleaving and spacing? But I suppose what you're saying there is, the piece isn't just a one day thing, it's you're building up to it. You're building up to it. You're building up to it incrementally and you're being very I mean, jenny webb talks about this really well, about incrementally.
Speaker 1:You know, really doing those marginal gains pieces about you know what what a piece of work looks like. And, uh, when I do our mapper training, I always start with um, I deliberately do it to myself. I put a. I find a top, top level answer from GCSE history, because I'm an English teacher, naturally, and I say, all right, as a linguist, as someone with a background in linguistics, what is it in this piece of writing, just as an adult, that I think looks like a really great piece of top level history writing for GCSE? And of course, it's the combination of subject knowledge. It's the combination of discourse markers, it's the synthesis of ideas, and when you look at it like that, you can then start to really extract all of the component parts out of a quality answer.
Speaker 1:And then there's your teaching, there's your disciplinary content right, there isn't it? And that's one of the things we talk about with MAPPA at schools is you can actually select and sequence words pertinent to the subject that you're doing and then the pupils will be taught and retaught about those, those words. And we had a quick chat about that off air previously. So your idea is really about training staff and really having that shared understanding of disciplinary literacy in primary schools. Do you make a distinction between I mean, we're going to talk about class, class practice a bit later on, but do you make a distinction between disciplinary reading and writing and, if so, how?
Speaker 2:yeah, the only the only thing I would say in primary is that I feel they're interlinked. So we link them because that's appropriate for our pupils and so when we're they're all interlinked. So reading, writing and speaking in the discipline are all interlinked. So when we're speaking, so say, for example, in mathematics, we might be say orally, we might say my hypothesis is um, I solve this problem this way. Then when you do some writing, when you're doing an explanation of your calculation, those sentence stems that you're using orally will then be linked to what you write. So we try and make it as linked as possible.
Speaker 2:And then when we're reading in the discipline so let's take a history example, because I like history um, if we're looking at why somebody's historically significant in history, then that, what we're exploring and what we're discussing in our reading through our sources, is what we will write about. So they're all interlinked, they're not separate. But yes, we do see the difference between disciplinary reading and disciplinary writing and obviously disciplinary talk as well, but also that they're all interlinked. You need to be able to say a sentence in order to write it, but also, if you write something, it will help you with what you say. So it's all interlinked in primary, and I think that's the difference perhaps with primary and secondary that we it's one teacher in the classroom for the whole day, you don't have different, and so you've got to make those links across the primary but also make it manageable for teachers teaching lots of different subjects.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, because I think that there's a really important distinction there between primary and secondary. But one thing I wanted to ask you about is is and this might just be me being a complete primary novice slash, you know, ignoramus, um, okay, um, if you're reading a history text and you're reading, say, an extract from from peep's diary, yes how do you interrogate that in the primary classroom versus, say, reading a novel? You know, you know a class novel, that's for fiction. Is there a distinction there for you, do you think?
Speaker 2:yeah, and that's kind of what I'm exploring in the book and just looking at that distinction. Of course you're going to start off with your generic reading, um, so you're making predictions, you're summarising inference, which are time limited. You don't need those forever, they can't keep doing that forever. But in the book what I do is I do take those reading comprehension strategies that are really set out in the EEF and then differentiate how you would read that in geography, history, etc. So I'll give an example If you're reading a novel in english, you're thinking about, I think, that because you're interrogating the text and you're using evidence and quotes from the text, so that's going to be really important.
Speaker 2:But if you're you're reading in science, you're going to be analyzing the data, you're going to be looking at key vocabulary, you're going to be making an observation, maybe an analysis of what's happened. But then, if you're reading in geography, you're going to be looking at the human and physical characteristics. You're going to be analysing that and what the difference is between them. And if you're reading in history, you're going to look at if it's someone that's significant. Why are they significant? Why have these historians interpreted a source in a particular way and so we might not be there in primary just yet, but it's something I'm advocating and have trialled in practice in primary.
Speaker 2:And I'm not talking about your very young children. Although we do start to talk within the discipline, you know if we're doing floating and sinking. Look at this is floating, look how it's sinking with very young children and using the key vocabulary. But once the children get to key stage two and we're doing that oral language and discussion we do make sure that children are speaking within the discipline because that will help them with their subject and deepen their knowledge of a particular subject linked to a progressive and sequence curriculum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it, how the you talked about linking a sequence of a curriculum and you look at, for example, how things like working memory, how that applies on a macro level as well as a micro level, because what you're looking at really, you're talking about structural, structural efficiencies in a curriculum that can facilitate minimal working memory um, kind of um overload, if you like, in each class.
Speaker 1:And it does take a lot of real thought, and I know that there's been controversy around ofsted and various things in recent years. But one thing I do think that they really got right was the focus and the discussion around curriculum and around knowledge, because I remember, as a curriculum director, I took that really seriously in terms of what did I? You know, I had these big, beautiful posters of plant pots and it was this idea that you had the concept of morality how do you visit that in year nine? With what questions? How do you visit that in year seven and year eight? And that was just so important to me that I did that thinking for my pupils up front. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do, but in a really subtle way in a primary school, because I suspect there's probably more scope for it to go badly wrong in a primary school if you, if you go too fast, too soon and you can quickly, you know.
Speaker 2:That's why, I guess that's why I'm not a primary teacher yeah, we, we definitely have the sequence and progression right the way from nursery all the way up to year six, and then we look at key stage three as well. So, um, making sure that we're aware of where the children are going, so that we've got that whole sequence for primary. And I think the disciplinary literacy book looks at that, so looks at the curriculum and looks how we can build on what we already know. So really similar, andy, exactly the same, and it is higher expectations for teachers and for children. But if they've got that knowledge and they can make the connections across the subjects, so make connections with history and geography and art, particularly science and mathematics then that really supports them and sets them up really well as they move through the primary and into secondary.
Speaker 1:I'm going to throw a curveball in here. I'm putting Serene on the spot. Everyone, what's your view on reading for pleasure? What do you take that term to mean, and where do you think that sits in a curriculum?
Speaker 2:I think reading for pleasure is really important and the the thing that we link really really clearly because obviously if children read more, they know more, they've got more of the cultural and more empathy and everything else. But one thing we have to do in primaries we have to promote reading for pleasure and one way we can do that is through, uh, reading aloud to children so that we're reading and and showing that fluency. Also, we can show that through reading through concepts, so we introduce concepts through stories and narratives, building on all that lovely work that mary myer did, and we also, you know, book fairs, working with parents, parents. Even so, reading for pleasure is really, really important within the disciplinary literacy aspect because children need to be able to read, to learn, read for information and enjoy reading. So absolutely, that is a key part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I did a podcast recently with Laura Shapiro and who is amazing. What a font of knowledge she's incredible. If anyone gets a chance, look up Dr Laura Shapiro from Aston University. She's an absolute incredible, she's a powerhouse.
Speaker 1:And she said something to me that really challenged my thinking. She said so what if kids are reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid in year 10? And I thought, oh, I'm not sure about that. She said but it's reading for pleasure. If they're not finding it challenging, they won't find it pleasurable anyway. So it might be a short-lived thing If they're genuinely enjoying it. It will be a short-lived thing if they're genuinely enjoying it. It will be a gateway to something else and I think it's a really I don't know how I feel about it, but I think at in teaching we can run the risk of it's got to be 18th 19th century literature. It's got to be this, it's got. It's got to be going to challenge this, it's got to be that.
Speaker 1:Whereas actually the fact that you know, listening to roryory Stewart's podcast the other day and he said that he was rereading something like Middlemarsh or I don't know it was that it was something like that and I thought he can reread that for pleasure because he's got, he's a highly educated individual, he's extremely intelligent and he can grapple with that and read that for pleasure. He would not find Diary of a Wimpy Clip pleasurable, you know, but I think there's also. I think what you touched on is there's a real multi-faceted approach to reading for pleasure, because it's a multi-faceted problem, isn't it? You talked about parents and, funnily enough, tomorrow night when I pick my kids up, we're going to the book fair. There's a book fair at their school, so it's funny you should mention.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the fact that you gave such a nuanced response there. That's fabulous and it leads us really nicely actually into the final part of the pod which I want to really ask you about, which is for colleagues in the primary classroom, perhaps even colleagues teaching lower end of secondary or potentially nurture groups in secondary, of lower prior retainers, for example. You know, whatever links we like to make here, what would your advice be for teachers who maybe aren't middle or senior leaders, who just want to start adopting this into their practice in their classroom? Where do you start what? Where does this fit for colleagues?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it will start with the oral language. So when you're modeling and you're having the discussions, of course you can use your I don't the discussions. Of course you can use your. I don't want to call it standard, but you can use your generic oracy strategies. I don't use the term oracy, but oral language oracy. I try and stick to one term because they're all different ones speaking, listening, disciplinary talk. You know all of those things. But think pair share, cold calling. All of those things are all applicable within the classroom.
Speaker 2:But then, as a teacher, look at the subject, specific aspects. So if you're teaching history, look at how you'd speak like a historian, look how you'd speak like a geographer and just start modelling that. Today, children, we're going to be geographers. We're going to think about the human and physical characteristics. Today, children, we're going to be geographers. We're going to think about the human and physical characteristics. Today, children, we're going to be artists and we're going to think about what tools this artist have used and whether we like or appreciate the art, and I think that would be a really good starting point that's really interesting and I did want to ask you a question.
Speaker 1:There's a follow-up question there. You said you don't use the term oracy, but I sense for you and you could just say this is nonsense. I sense for you there's a deliberate choice there around the fact that you've deliberately chosen to use the phrase oral language rather than oracy. Is there a deliberate choice there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is, and it's basically behind the research, and everybody will say that you know we're in, where are we 2025. And you know we've moved on from the research. And everybody will say that you know we we're in, where are we um 2025? And you know that we've moved on from the research. But it was just the kind of critiques around that term, oracy, that it was to support the, you know, to become more middle class um, and and that term has lots of connotations and so I don't want to limit it. I think children can use their authentic voices when they're talking and speaking within the discipline and shouldn't be limited. However, I do feel that we do need standard English at some point. You know if we're going for job interviews or presenting in assemblies and so we might need to code switch, and so when I looked in detail at the research and looked at equity and equality and inclusion, I wanted to use a term that didn't have connotations around middle class ways of speaking.
Speaker 1:I think that's really interesting because I hadn't thought of it prior to this pod.
Speaker 1:But what I like about oral language rather than oracy is, even when we've been discussing at Bedrock about oracy and about what that means for our blogs and what we're producing for the community, I have often, since I've been at Bedrock, shied away from oracy. We know, with the recent government developments. I just wonder if calling it oracy is is reinforcing this sense that it's a nebulous thing that floats and that's almost superfluous to everything, whereas if you start to integrate it as something like a, a third component of reading, writing, oral language, then you can really start to see the triumph of those three things working together, which are you know, you talked about rehearsing lines and and Natalie Wexler spoke about the other week I know Jenny strongly about this as well um, would you agree with that that it it it's easier to integrate into a classroom setting if you call it oral language yeah, I think also, what we need to do as you know, as as it comes through is we need to define what we mean, because that's going to be important as well.
Speaker 2:And what do we mean? Because obviously, you've got the social justice aspect, you've got the debating aspect, you've got the presentational aspect of of speaking, and I think that's why my book I just called it speaking, because I just thought that's just such a general term, um, and I can expand on it, and I do actually define what I mean by it in the book, but I just found too many different variables and so oral language for me just works in the curriculum, but of course, there is a social justice aspect about having a voice as well.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. That's completely off the same pages as I am, you know. I look forward to reading the book because I think there's going to be really powerful insights in there for myself as well, in my role and in terms of disciplinary literacy. You know, in a primary setting, when it comes to a classroom teacher, you said you'd start with the oral language. What else can colleagues start to build into their planning? That's not going to, you know, swallow up their workload and so on and so forth. What sort of considerations and refinements can they make, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it will be the oral language. Make sure they know their subjects, so that might be senior leaders' responsibility. So make sure we've got that sequence and progressive curriculum. And then it overlaps with some other generic strategies. So if we look at things like metacognition plan, do review, articulating your thought process it actually overlaps. So when you're modeling, you know how to speak like a historian or how to write like a historian using the gradual release model. I do, we do, you do, and really modeling your thought process is particularly powerful in terms of that delivery. And I do have a whole chapter on metacognition and disciplinary literacy in the book because I think that when you're writing like a historian, you need to model that way. Or you're talking like a mathematician, you need to model your way. Or you're talking like a mathematician, you need to model your process and articulate your thought process so it very clearly overlaps. So for teachers, then, really modeling the process of what it means to be a mathematician, to work out a calculation, is really, really powerful for pupils again, it's about's about it's.
Speaker 1:The common theme is just tell them, isn't it? And I don't like that term being used in a reductionist way because that's almost like this grad grindy and like type of just draw them with facts and knowledge. But I wrote about it. I did a reflective piece from my blog. The other day I sat and did my little boy's homework with him, a descriptive piece of writing, and he struggles with his reading and his writing and you know he could do the piece of work independently, no problem.
Speaker 1:But the amount of of mini steps it took to get a piece of work that he was capable of producing, I was genuinely quite blown away by it in terms of reading a little bit of the book that we were reading, about his character, about thinking about moments, about pinning that moment down to not just then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. Actually, let's look, we're going to do a five second sequence. What three things happened inside that five second sequence? And then thinking about the exciting vocabulary, writing it down and then me reading it back to him, giving him the letters each time. So I capital, I space got, otter got, and I thought he's gonna lamp me one in a minute with reading every single word he's gonna get, but actually, because he was focusing on his handwriting, that was what was taking his cognitive load up at that point, and I think it blows my mind what teachers primary, secondary teachers have to do to unpack the complexities of learning every single day.
Speaker 1:And I love what you just said there about what that should look and feel like in the different subjects, and it can be the way you've just. I mean, I wish I was in your classroom when I was a kid you've just made it sound so exciting. You just made it sound so we're thinking like historians. It's almost like going on an adventure and using that narrative element that mary might talks about, um, you've made it sound thrilling the kids love it.
Speaker 2:Honestly, in our trust, they absolutely love it and they actually prefer quite a lot of the children disciplinary writing to um writing in english. We got it to that stage because they've learned the content and they know so much about it that they want to show off what they know and can do. But also, what you were talking about was interesting because you were saying about the handwriting and also breaking things down into smaller chunks, which is your rose and shine principles in action. But actually they like it because the focus isn't on English. The focus isn't on your handwriting, your spelling, although that's still important. The focus is on the content of their writing and they've told me they enjoy it because the focus is on showing off what they know. So it's a kind of different focus. We're not saying it's not important and writing and spelling, but it's not the focus for disciplinary writing.
Speaker 1:It's so fascinating because my daughter at the moment is on her homework and she's doing number fluency and she wants to get up to the next stage and be with her. All of her friends are and I've had to work really hard with her, but actually all right, eventually it'll be good to be adding up across 10, so eight plus five, adding up across 10, which is tough. But it was my wife who said to me Andy, you're pestering her to go across 10, just let her nail up to 10,. So six plus what is 10, seven plus what is 10. And it's been absolutely joyous watching her nail that over the last couple of days and now she's not having to count on her hands six plus what equals 10. And I think it's just about teachers being, and colleagues being, mindful about what those steps might need to look like.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think about my time in the classroom and you know, I know I could have been better um, and that's a really important thing to reflect on yeah, but that's why you need a progressive and sequence correct, because you're building on what you already know and you're not rushing the children ahead to things that they haven't got the basics to begin with. Um, and that's why we don't really do disciplinary writing for young children, because we want the foundational knowledge to be secure. They need to know how to write a sentence. They need to know their number bonds to 10.
Speaker 1:4 plus 6 is 10, but we can read disciplinary text to them and introduce concepts through stories I think that's just a and that's the best place to finish on, because you know that's been one of my favourite ever pods. That that's been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. When's the book out?
Speaker 2:It's out in August 2025. So a little way.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I will certainly be ordering a copy of that book and when it comes out, I'd be delighted to review, share, talk about it, because it's going to be amazing. I think colleagues across all sectors will find that extremely useful. So thank you so much for coming on and everyone, please continue to like and subscribe the podcast. It really helps draw more people to it. Shireen doesn't realise she made my day saying that before she came on she'd listened to a couple of the pods and it's great to hear that trusts, trust leads. Colleagues are passing this pod to others, because we really do just try and get really interesting guests on to talk about all sorts of interesting things. So thank you so much for coming on, shireen. It's been a blast. And you know what? Thank you so much for coming on, shereen. It's been, it's been a blast, and I you know what, closer to the time when it comes out, let's, let's talk again, let's, let's, let's do this again. It'll be a pleasure yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:There might be bits that you want to talk about further. Let's do it there, so thanks so much andy, I've really enjoyed speaking to you, thank you it's my pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone and continue to keep listening and see you next time.
