Bedrock Talks from Bedrock Learning

25. Death by PowerPoint: Improving CPD at Trust Level with Mike Gardner

September 10, 2024 • Bedrock Learning • Season 2 • Episode 19

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How can you transform your teaching practices to be more engaging and effective? In this episode, we sit down with Mike Gardner, the Teaching and Learning Lead for Maritime Academy Trust, to explore his successful strategies for enhancing education across 13 primary schools in southeast London and Kent. 

From his innovative start-up, The Oracy Shift, which prioritizes communication skills, to his hands-on role in coaching and mentoring teachers from nursery to year six, Mike provides a wealth of insights into tackling diverse educational needs and unifying effective methodologies across different stages of primary education.

Speaker 1:

hi everyone, thank you for continuing to stream, download and follow the bedrock talks podcast with bedrock learning. Um, so, so loyally it's been. It's been fantastic the you know continuing to have lots of people email in and ask us and engage with us and and various bits. So, yeah, it's fantastic. Thank you for continuing to listen. Um, I'm andy sammons, the head of teaching and learning at bedrock.

Speaker 1:

Um, and in this pop we've got a really interesting one. It's Mike Gardner, who's the teaching and learning lead for Maritime Academy Trust. Those of you who are on LinkedIn will probably see him popping up on your feeds as someone who's got lots of interesting things to say around teaching and learning and particularly in the primary sector, but also oracy related. The schools he works across in London, andon and kent are really really interesting contexts. Um, and he's looking at um. His current role is around developing teaching and learning and cpd, particularly across the entire trust, and you know, you listen to what he says about his, his um, his executive head. You look at how they're really starting to unpick the bones and what, what kind of really should underpin quality CPD at a trust level and they're doing some really exciting stuff. So teaching and learning leads, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

Anyone interested in CPD really really do give this a listen and listen closely and obviously connect with Mike afterwards as well. I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear from you. He's a really generous guy in terms of his time and spirit. So enjoy, continue to like and subscribe and that type of thing Really important to keep our numbers up and to keep so we can keep getting really great guests on and continue to listen. Thank you so much, everyone.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so morning Mike, on the first Monday of of the summer holidays both got we've both just been discussing that we've got child free houses, so my head's throbbing a little bit less than it was this time last week. Uh, thank you for coming on, mike, massively appreciate it. Um, could you just start give us a sense of you know, your role, what you do and the scope of of what you do across your trust? Because, just for context, for listeners, mike's got a really interesting role and again one that I approached online to come on. So I think it'd be good just to start with, uh, with with what, with the scope of what you do brilliant morning, andy.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for um inviting me onto your podcast, and so my predominant role is I'm the teaching and learning lead in the Maritime Academy Trust, so our trust is based across southeast London and into Kent and we serve 13 primary schools. I believe it's just over 4,000 pupils, around four, four to five hundred staff members, and so in that role, in my day job, I'm going around to schools, I'm working with leads, with head teachers, with staff coaching, mentoring around the pedagogy of good practice in teaching, and my other sort of hats that I wear, which I think you mentioned through my linkedin, is I'm the founder of a new startup called the oracy shift, so I'm also looking at the oracy across across education in this country, using my experience and other people's to make that a focus of mine.

Speaker 1:

So that's my other project I work on Sounds like a really interesting role, and you're not in front of pupils at the moment. No, do you teach any classes or are you working with teachers and improving their practice all day, every day?

Speaker 2:

A mixture of both. So when we're working with leads or with their teachers, it tends to be out of class doing learning walks or are looking at technology and how we can. We can improve in those areas and but definitely still in class, just in many classes. So I'm in maybe five or six different schools each week working with identified staff that maybe need some support. Possibly we're doing some work for our act. So newer teachers as well, and so that does involve modeling. So I could be in nursery one day, I could be in year six the next day, and different subjects, different sort of needs, whether it's um modeling, modeling scaffolding, questioning all of those areas. So using my experience and then bringing in other people and training them up to do a similar role. So I've been in this role for just just a year now and the long-term sort of goal is to train up those expertise um across our hubs so that people can then take on that, that role going forwards beyond just me it.

Speaker 1:

It blows my mind when I drop my kids off at primary school, the range of uh, of skills that teachers need, because in a secondary, obviously you have seven up to 11, for example. Or, you know, in fe you might have, you know, a little bit older than that obviously, but to all intents and purposes, the subject of english, as I taught, doesn't change massively between 7 and 11. The focus does, but it's, you know, whereas you know, my daughter's in, just come out of reception and I'm pretty sure, sure that her, her teacher's day looks very different to even my son's teacher who teaches year three, year four. You know, and I just think I'm really curious to know and I will probably frame this in our next question really how on earth you cater for that range of need across primary schools and what teachers' needs are. So, before we do get into that first aspect, what does that look like? How do you? You know from what I found at EY is it foundation teacher? And what they need from a key stage one and two.

Speaker 2:

Is there things that underpin what they need? Is there similarities all the way through? There are definitely threads, golden threads that run through all of the education and in terms of my practice. So I started predominantly in upper key stage two, so I was in five and in four and then I went into six and if you speak to any year six teacher, once you're in six you stay in six for a long time. So I I went through six for four or five years um through to COVID and then, where I was looking for opportunities to develop my practice and not just be so key stage two, heavy Um, I did work with my head teacher. We moved me into year two. So I spent two years of covid in year two, which was a real why opener? Because having six and seven year olds working remotely at home but then coming back into the classroom. And then I went into nursery for a year. So when my son was in nursery not in my school, but when I, my son was at nursery age I went into nursery for a year.

Speaker 2:

And it's funny, like you say, every teacher is different when you go into those whole class, whole sorry, whole staff meetings and you always hear their heads talking about the real learning happens in early years and you've got the year six teacher going oh, but they don't teach past progressive tense, they don't teach relative clauses, but then when you go into early years it looks like everyone's just playing.

Speaker 2:

But it really is. So the pedagogy and the practice behind that and that learning through play is so pervasive in early years and that's such a skill Really it was. My most enjoyable year was early years, but it was the most demanding on you physically, especially as you get older, that you know the bending down, the picking up and the energy levels of the children and and you have to think about really clearly what you're teaching, how you're teaching it, because those children we're teaching three and four year olds, some, some of our schools that barely speak any english teaching them and trying to get them to to develop those skills within their attention span is, is a is a real mastery skill. So that's where that's where I think some of those skills within their attention span, is is a is a real mastery skill. So that's where that's where I think some of those skills from early years can transfer up into the older school, such as that's really interesting yeah, using manipulatives, using visuals, using play, using dialogue and language development.

Speaker 2:

That tends to sort peter out a little bit in key stage one and two, when it becomes a lot more workbook focused and exercise book.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting because part of my role at Bedrock is is as allowed me to work at home and it's been an absolute privilege to and I will treasure this for the rest of my life being able, having been able to drop my little girl off in reception and going going into the class and seeing her she said, daddy, can, can you see me do my jobs? And she gets her name out and that's obviously the form of the register and she puts it on on a star chart and then she chooses her lunch and then she goes and shows me doing her curiosity cubes and I just think that this is so. This is incredible. I will take this with me forever and I just think that you know primary schools are. Really I love doing the school run. There's such lovely places of a morning. I think if I had my time again, I might be a primary teacher.

Speaker 2:

They're just incredible places to be um you talk about that independence, that's, that's really sort of apparent when you go into nursery and you're thinking about the routine, because routine and behavior is key, um, in any sort of environment, but especially in early years. So and you see how independent they are and I know parents come in and go. Why, why don't they do this at home? And but they go in, you're right, they get their name, they write their name down, they go and sit, they know what the routine is and we build that independence for them and so say, for example, winter time doing zips up, putting your coats on it's not that the adult just does it because it's easier for them, no, the skill is then learning that independence.

Speaker 2:

And the sad aspect of it is, as they get older, through the school and where the academic pressures come on testing and workload, that independence goes because the teachers are in a rush, they have the pressure of getting things done, and and then you know it's a silly example, but you have children in year four, year five saying can I turn over the page? Or I've finished the page, what do I do now? Or my pencil is broken and they're waiting for the teacher to give them the instruction. Because that's a sort of cultural shift that they've gone through, so that's something that I think needs to be addressed.

Speaker 1:

The long term is that independence that's really interesting and that's one of your golden threads, isn't? It is self-efficacy, because it that that that does manifest itself in secondary self-efficacy, learned helplessness, all of that stuff, because it becomes lack of independence, can turn toxic. In terms of that learned helplessness, I can't do this, I can't do that. It's easy just to not bother trying in the first place, and I think that that's that's. That's fascinating. What you just said there, um, and what, how that translates into a primary context, is really interesting, I think.

Speaker 1:

And oh sorry as I say, it also goes into parent mode.

Speaker 2:

So as a teacher, as a parent, when I was in nursery, if I saw a child's bag being carried by the parent or the grandparent, I would be making a reminder of oh, you're in charge of your things, you carry your things. So as a parent, then you become hyper aware with your children that you want them to be replicating that. So it's an interesting um dynamic with the parent and being a parent and the teacher at the same time well, you're making me reflect, actually, on something that happened this morning.

Speaker 1:

I was just showing my wife because I was venting, so my son said can I have some strawberries for breakfast, because we've got some in the fridge. And I was like, okay, this is gonna be a nightmare, but okay, fine. So he got them out and he didn't have. He didn't cut the store stuff, he just filled this bowl up with strawberries. It was like he took them all. It was just mad.

Speaker 1:

And then not only did he take them all without cutting them up or anything like that, but he left them, left the packet open on the side, and I and I just said, like will, come on, let's just think about this for a second. You've got too many in there and you know, unpacked it all and he was annoyed at me for making back, stand up, stand back up. And I just said, look, if you leave them out, they won't be nice later. If you take too many, no one else is going to have them, and it was just helping him unpack what that was.

Speaker 1:

So next time you know it's about me not do the easy thing is just for me to do it and just shut up, do it, get on with it, but actually what I need to do is take that time to unpack it for him and I mean, I just think there's there's a lot going on there. So, when it comes to your role and cpd because I we've had a chat before about this and I sat there nodding ferociously at what you said and I will speak, I can. This speaks a lot of truth to me in your experience. But you know, as you come into this role as someone who's quite fresh into it and he's obviously approaching with a lot of dynamism, a lot of creativity, in your view, what is wrong with teacher cpd?

Speaker 2:

well is since, uh, because I think since the start of when I've been teaching. Every time you go and you you're taught how to teach the children. So you're you're talking about the getting their attention, using it, making it practical. You know the concrete pictorial abstract that getting them to say it, getting them to try it out, and all that scaffolding and that muddled muddled approach. But then you go into the staff meetings. It might be on a wednesday afternoon, it might be a twilight, it might be a whole day course, and then you're sat there and I've written these down because I had to get them out of my head.

Speaker 2:

There's, there's just so many elements of the the teacher c, cpd that don't mirror the good practices that we expect in the class, and I have my hat on. If I was a teacher observing this person delivering the CPD, would I rate their lesson? Would I say that's a really strong lesson and I've written them down so I'll go through some of them. So, first of all, it's that passivity. So they're so passive. I expect most CPDs teachers go and sit down. They're so passive. I expect most CPDs teachers go and sit down. They're probably tired after a long day, so they want to sit down and just sort of decompress, unwind, and then the CPD is.

Speaker 2:

You know it's deaf by PowerPoint. It's not a two-way dialogue, it's a one-way. Here's some information I'm sharing with you. There's no movement, the physical side is dropped off. So then the brain sort of disengages a slightly. So then everyone's sitting there and the slides you know, it's like you've been to those, those courses where they're, they're reading off of the slide and someone sits next to you and say I could just read that myself. So that's one thing.

Speaker 2:

It's that overload of theory as well. So you go where someone's read lots and lots of research books and there's some great books out there and I buy lots of books and read them on the theory, but then delivering it in a CPD for staff, a one-off CPD and it's theory, but where's the practical Staff? Need you to digest some of it for them? And a link between yes, so okay, this is the theory, this is some great theory. But okay, what does that look like in my classroom?

Speaker 2:

Because I'm in, say, southeast london, we've got very different needs to some other parts of the country. I'm in a specific class with lots of sen needs maybe, or eal. So how can you help me to use this and I always, I always think when I come away from a any sort of CPD, whether it's a day or an hour, what's my key takeaway and what is the one or two things I can go and actually enact and actually try in my classroom. And if it's all theory, then I can't really convey that the next day and try things out. So I think there's a gap there between we need a balance of theory and practice, but we need to make it real for the teachers.

Speaker 1:

I totally agree. And when I speak to schools and I mean this in all sincerity when schools ask me to come and speak to their staff and give me an hour of their cpd time, I see it as a real privilege and I don't want to come off that stage unless I'm absolutely knackered. I want to have given it everything. I want to have engaged them. I want to have been dynamically answering their questions, saying to them them openly don't be polite, be honest. If you think this is, if you disagree with this, tell me. And I always kind of say at the end I always finish my sessions with takeaways. So you know what four things can you do tomorrow that don't require any additional work? Maybe just think about something a different way. And I think it's, and I felt the same as a teacher. You know these 30 kids, for better or for worse, are forced to listen to me for an hour in my room with me in charge.

Speaker 1:

I always saw that as a privilege and I think you're thinking of it in completely the right way around. All of these things, put yourself back in the learner's shoes. What should that look like? And I think we really need to think about what you've just said there, because there is theory, there is reading, there is academia, there is things to digest. But what you said there about digesting it for staff and I think there's a real there's an increasing range of books out there that are doing this for teachers. But even as bite-sized as you make it you look at those lovely walkthrough books teachers haven't even got time to pick those up nowadays. So for you, what does that look like? For you? When it comes to, you know, using your pedagogy to improve cpd delivery, what are you doing as an upshot in your day-to-day to make this a reality for the teachers in your school?

Speaker 2:

sure. So, um, I think, when I look at the different elements so in maritime we we focus on rosenshine's principles of instruction. So the scaffolding, the questioning, that, the sort of sequence that you would go through to address the, that level of passive nature that comes through from lots of the cpds first of all, address the powerpoint, address the resources. Don't put on lots of text. Maybe have a visual, maybe have a question, maybe have a flip chart and work through it with the, with the um staff.

Speaker 2:

It's also looking for those opportunities for dialogue. So you might use a diamond nine, you might use a role play, you might use some of the kagan strategies. So, um, partner, talk and rally robin, and I always try and use those things that I would deploy in the classroom. So I'm, you know lots of our schools use kagan strategies or talk strategies, use those with the staff. Number one, it gets them talking and gets them engaged so they enjoy it. But number two, it also shows them the power of those strategies in the classroom. So I can then say at the end you've used these, go and use them with your, with your children.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'm quite big, you know just while you say that, um, my line manager, uh, director of education, olivia, she we were talking about you know what we should do next at bedrock in terms of could we do this, could we do that? What are we focusing on next for our teachers? And she said all right, then, andy, you've got five points to spend across the organization for your teachers, for your pupils, for your schools. Where do you spend them? Where do you spend them? And that level of that just getting me thinking about it, I then apply that to when I speak to schools.

Speaker 1:

You know, we sometimes talk about implementation and what resources they have, whether it's time, whether it's incentives to spend on rewards and things like that. I think you're so right in terms of giving people things that they can easily replicate in a way that makes sense for them and their pupils. Things like diamond nines are so easy, but they're so, as you say, it gets them talking. It gets them thinking about it in a more dynamic and fluid way because, as you've said quite rightly, I I never forget this that we I mean my school paid for me to go on a cpd years and years ago, and it was I think it was in Birmingham somewhere and the deliverer pitched up, opened up the packet of resources that they'd been given, wouldn't start speaking until they'd opened the PowerPoint and I thought, wow, I could have just been emailed this. I didn't need this, and I think you're right to be trying to get people to think in a more dynamic and fluid way in those sessions. I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2:

That's where you're talking about a privilege. It is a privilege on time. Staff are so busy doing other things that the SLT and other people have asked of them marking data and so on that one hour needs to be worthwhile. Otherwise all they're thinking of is what do I need to do next? But if you get them engaged in tasks and you get them talking, discussing and debating and getting that really healthy dialogue, then they're not thinking about that. They're thinking about wow, this is really interesting. And one of the other. The other issues that I have with cpd and this is something that we've tried to address through our maritime approach is how standalone and one-off they can be.

Speaker 2:

So you go to a cpd on um, a writing approach at school, and then that's it. You may be picked up on it in learning walks or there may be a bit of training afterwards or a bit of embedding, but really it it doesn't stick. And then, when you know, we talk about reading lots of academia I'm reading lots over the last year about retrieval practice, about spaced learning. We need to give those opportunities to revisit. So we need a CPD to not be a one-off. It needs to be a series of CPDs, whether it's a whole term focused on around one area. There's gap tasks there chances for staff to to get support in the classroom, and then they come back and they say what worked, what didn't work. Oh, actually, can we, can we look at something slightly different? Um, whereas if they're just left as a standalone, people go great. Then they go home, they mark their books and the next day they're back into the thick of the action.

Speaker 2:

So it really that's a really big part of where we're going with maritime is to try and make our cpd spaced out manageable chunks, so not not massive, just one-off sort of sessions, small, manageable chunks, spaced over time with that opportunity to reflect, to revisit and for people to have a dialogue with people in school so they can look at what works for them, what doesn't, and unpick those, any misconceptions or any barriers they're finding in their classroom. And the effect of that is far greater than just having a one-off bam. There it is, and we've invited a special speaker in. They've given you this whizzy talk and then I'll see you later, and then you're off to the next goal. So we're trying to make it sustained and a longer term sort of perspective to it.

Speaker 1:

So what you're trying to do because I mean that you know the now classic, or all-time classic, um, why don't students like school the daniel william book? You know the idea is that thinking is we're natural thinkers, humans, but it's hard right, and what we're trying to do is we're trying to. What you're trying to do at scale is disrupt some of those processes that we naturally fall into around. Actually, what you know, what mice just spoke said, you know, giving me cpd on it's interesting, it's great, but actually it's easier for me just to go home and cling to the familiarity of marking my books and getting stuck in my own. You know my routine and doing that again. That's safer for me and I mean, it's a little example I've, um, I've just started running 5ks again and I want to try and get up to a 10k and hopefully in it, you know, maybe a half marathon again at a decent time, and what I'm, what I'm doing is actually, rather than just plodding around my 5k route again and again, which is easier for me, it's familiar I've downloaded the nike running app and actually I'm doing that.

Speaker 1:

As weird as it sounds, listeners, this is a real thing. Fartlek runs where you do 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. I'm doing um, recovery runs, which are hard, because actually I want to sweat when I run and I want to work up, but actually recovery runs are important. I want I'm doing these things that are counterintuitive to just the safety of plodding around my 5k route and I think as much as we can get in the way of teachers, just of colleagues falling into the traps of familiarity, and that can't be death by PowerPoint, it has to be. What actionable things can I do that is going to make my life easier, make the learning more powerful and be really actionable really quickly? And there's a skill, right there isn't there Giving them information in that right way, digesting it and then giving them the information as well. There is.

Speaker 2:

And it's aside from CPD as an an entity in my current role in the in the trust, where I go and work with leads, and so I've been working with lots of maths leads across different schools. They only have limited time with me because that's. They have a day job they have. They have to go into their classes. So I might go and see them once every week or two weeks for an hour, but we make that hour really worthwhile. They're out of class with me. Maybe one week we're looking at, we're doing a learning walk and not to spy on people but to say, as a lead, what are you needing to look out for? And then next week we might look at some theory and some modeling in class and we're building that over a sustained time.

Speaker 2:

So I started with some of our schools in september through to now, and now I'm handing the baton on to them, but it took a long time.

Speaker 2:

But they, like you said, when you're running at start it was baby steps. Sometimes they would say you're going too fast, we need to revisit, we need to consolidate, we need to look at that again, or why is that not working for us? And then I would link them up with other schools that have maybe similar situations and have figured it out in a different way, but that it needs to be spaced out because people need time to reflect and go back and go oh, that that didn't work. And the impact of it is their confidence, their self-efficacy, that their esteem has grown over that year. And now they're saying, oh, when I refer to terms around retrieval or modeling, anchor charts, working walls, they go oh, yeah, we know that we can lead on that. And then they'll send me things like oh, we're running the cpd, we've used some ideas from you, and then they're creating their own. So we're trying to build that in our staff so that they they're actively leading those CPDs in that way, rather than just being from myself and from the central team.

Speaker 1:

Something I love. That is funny enough. This morning it was really lovely when I was running, actually in the app it said. It said I want you to be running at four out of 10. And I know it's going to take you, it's going to be constant, it's going to mean that you concentrate and you're going to need to run a four out of 10, because in a minute you're going to be running eight, nine out of 10, and you're going to have done four or five of these.

Speaker 1:

And I think it takes for schools as well, just as much courage to slow down as it does to speed up. The easier thing is it's drilled into us to speed up and the number of times I speak to schools and I love speaking to schools and literacy leads and slt about this. You know they've often bought bedrock and they've, and they love what it stands for and they love what you know. They want to embed discipline across all of their subjects. They want the cpd and everything. But I'll say, look, do mapper our subject specific curriculum, one max, two subjects for the first half term. Nail it, get the kids used to it, get the teachers used to it, then you've got a much higher sort of almost a bigger critical mass of of colleagues in the school that you can use it and feel more confident.

Speaker 1:

The easy thing to do is roll it out and and sprint, but I love what you're saying, um, and that's why I approached you on linkedin before around you know, because I think your approach to this whole thing at scale is a really powerful one. Um, I would love to come and see some of your scores. I bet they're fantastic. And that leads me into kind of the final part of the conversation, really, which is what you know. What impact have you had so far? What are you noticing about the way that you are infusing this kind of quite high level theoretical stuff around interleaving spacing, deliberate practice as well into seep, into schools, where you've got 13 schools, you know 4 000 students, you know hundreds of staff. What have you learned so far and what impact do you feel that you've had so far?

Speaker 2:

so I I sort of ran a pilot project um at the start of this year, so sort of spring one, spring, two terms in my base school where I trained and where I'd worked through and which is in woolwich in southeast london um, really challenging area, high deprivation, high EAL, high SEN. But I love it and it's a great place and our staff there are really on board with innovating and pushing forward with really good practice. And I have a really strong working relationship with the head teacher there where he said to me, after hearing my ideas, I'd like you to run some training for our support staff. So it was around talk for writing. So the PyCorp training, all of the teaching staff had had training. But at the school they know the value of having the support staff at the same level because they're running the interventions, they're leading classes at points in the day. So I ran that but we could have run it in maybe one or two sessions. We ran it in 30 minute sessions but about eight or nine of them spread out over a few months. So it was a 30 minute session. I think we had about over two sort of cohorts, nine or ten ta's, and this is in a one form entry released for that time and that those eight sales sessions, split over 30 minutes over weeks and weeks, really helped with that retrieval and that embedding. So we had um.

Speaker 2:

Because it was a really short space of time, we had to think differently about how we did it. So we had to use jam boards, we used word clouds, we used technology to gather what they already knew. We made it really practical. So they were doing story maps, they were bringing in resources and then we had those gap tasks in between and those gap tasks allowed them to go away. Trial it with their groups, come back, talk to each other as a community and say what worked, what didn't work. So that had a really good impact and the confidence we measured it.

Speaker 2:

Everything I do, we try and measure good impact and the confidence we measured it. Everything I do we try and measure the impact from the start to the end. We did a survey pre and post. The confidence of the staff to deliver talk, for writing and from the support staff was massively increased. So that was a trial for me and to show my education director this is the sort of thing we can do and then this year, coming from september onwards, in the academic year we're building our pathways, our CPD pathways for different teachers, so for leadership, for ECTs, and one of the pathways I'm delivering is called the key principles of teaching.

Speaker 2:

They're not leadership, so they're maybe three, four, five years into teaching and they want to learn a bit more about some of the pedagogy and the approaches. So the way that's different from normal CPD. It's running over within two cohorts, over three sort of half terms, and it's a mixture of face-to-face and online. So one day we'll be going into schools all together observing, looking at practice and pedagogy hand-in-hand, questioning the leadership. Then there'll be some interactive gap tasks and then we'll follow that up with um, the online. So the reflection on what happened, how has it gone in their classes, are we breaking that down into three units of um retrieval, modeling and then assessment. So really sort of generic not generic, but transferable skills across all, all education. Um.

Speaker 2:

Each of those people would then have a link mentor in schools. So this isn't a formal mentor, but someone they can link in with, because we realize, and I've realized, you do training, you go back to school, you try something out, but you're on your own. If we have a link mentor, they're going back to school and we expect the link mentors to be asking those questions in between those sessions. Oh, how's that going? Or what did you learn from that? Um, that cpd and that I mean that I'm not continues- it.

Speaker 1:

It's that level of healthy accountability. Isn't it not a tick box? You've got to come here and show you've done that. It's that level of healthy accountability, isn't it not a tick box? You've got to come here and show you've done that. It's that level of healthy accountability where you're encouraged and you're celebrated for thinking in a really proactive, creative way around your own, your own pedagogy, right that's.

Speaker 2:

That's really important it is, and it's a positive accountability. It's not a have you done this, have you done that? It's a oh, what did you learn? Or oh, what are you struggling with? Can I help you to to try and put that right in your classroom, um, and then when they're coming back into our sessions, following on from that because it's spaced out over three or four months then they really can build up that dialogue with within their school and across the trust and we can link in people that can support them where they may be struggling with one aspect of it. So that's where it's going with us at the moment is developing that CPD. That's a mixture of hybrids face-to-face, but getting that and this links to my oracy getting them talking about it, reflecting together and having that shared dialogue, getting them talking about it reflecting together and having that shared dialogue.

Speaker 1:

It sounds like a really forward-thinking, uh, progressive, uh and I don't, you know, moving almost away from cpd but, you know, actually in towards really deepening those, the, the understanding and and the almost reigniting the passion that teachers should have for what they're doing in front, you know, with the pupils in front of them. Um, I think that's a it's it sounds incredible and you know this is how we're gonna. You know I remember reading in the teacher gap. You know teaching and education is the only sector that can proactively give people the chance to improve and empower their lives and I think that you know what you're doing in for your communities is is really inspiring and, um, you know we've got with mike for the listeners.

Speaker 1:

Mike's agreed to come on and do a few more for a podcast for us around oracy and things like that, and I think we've got a few, a few irons in the fire there and I know people this will be a popular one. Um, so, for people listening, can please make sure that you continue to uh subscribe to the pod and email us at education at bedrocklandorg if you've got any any questions for guests or if you'd like to. You know to kind of get in touch with them or us. Please email us as well. Um, mike, you've been an amazing guest. Thank you so much, and thank you for having me. It's totally our pleasure and we'll get you on soon again, because I know this will be one that particularly colleagues in primary sector, but across all sectors would love to hear. So thank you so much. Good luck with the Oracy project. It's been a pleasure, and enjoy the rest of your day before the children come back super.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much, andy. It's been a real pleasure to be on here. Thank you.

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Andy Sammons

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