Bedrock Talks from Bedrock Learning
Welcome to Bedrock Talks, a podcast from the team at Bedrock Learning that delves deep into the heart of literacy in education. Hosted by the insightful and experienced educator Andy Sammons, this podcast stands as a beacon for anyone passionate about enhancing literacy skills and understanding its pivotal role in education.
Each episode is a journey into the world of literacy education. Andy brings together a diverse array of voices from across the education sector, from seasoned teachers to renowned academics, policy makers to literacy advocates. All of our guests share a common goal: to explore and expand the horizons of literacy education.
We go beyond surface-level conversations. Our discussions are in-depth, nuanced, and filled with insights that only years of experience and expertise can bring. We tackle a wide range of topics, from innovative teaching methods to the latest research in literacy, the impact of technology on reading and writing, to strategies for engaging diverse learners. Our aim is to provide a platform where the complexities of literacy are unpacked and understood in a way that is both accessible and enlightening.
Join Andy and his guests as they illuminate the multifaceted world of literacy. Subscribe to Bedrock Talks and be part of a community that believes in the transformative power of literacy. Together, let's shape a more literate, informed, and connected world.
Bedrock Talks from Bedrock Learning
22. Going from teacher to school leader with Dani Walley
After so many comments, thoughts and requests from the first episode, Dani Walley returns to Bedrock Talks to discuss leadership and teacher development.
Dani is an Assistant Principal leading on teaching, learning and curriculum in a large secondary school. Previously a Director of Humanities, Dani is passionate about empowering staff and students to succeed. She has a forthcoming publication focused on middle leadership and passionately asserts that addressing behavioural issues is crucial before diving into the academic curriculum.
In this episode, Dani offers heartfelt views on leadership, including honest reflections about her own journey and learnings. You'll also hear about her ground-breaking new CPD development programme being rolled out at Bedrock partner school, Ormiston Sir Stanley Matthews Academy in Stoke-on-Trent.
hi everyone. Uh, thank you for continuing to download, stream Bedrock Talks, our podcast, which continues to gather momentum, which is lovely. Please continue to make sure that you like and subscribe and things like that to the pod and if you have any questions or things you'd like us to address, email education at bedrocklearningorg and we'll pick it up. And you know we're having lots of people ask us questions about guests and things, so, yeah, please do that. We have, um, a returning guest today. Uh, in my view, a bit of a bedrock legend. Uh, given the spike of listens from the last podcast that that we had, we've got danny wally, who's the assistant principal for teaching, learning and curriculum. Is that I got that? Have I got?
Speaker 2:that right, yeah, perfect sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, teach learning curriculum. I literally asked her that 10 seconds ago. I'm sorry I'm having to clarify that um and uh and we, we got. We got talking after the last part about our sort of journeys as middle leaders. Danny's now moved into senior leadership as well and I just thought again the barometer for me to get someone onto the podcast is is this conversation not from my perspective, but for you know, for hearing me, but is it worth for people to hear the other person? And I think that the conversation we started to have about around middle leadership was something that I think people need to hear about. So thank you for coming back on, danny. It's, uh, it's great that you've come back on and you are a week away from the summer holidays as we stand, so congratulations for making it this far through the year thank you.
Speaker 2:I really feel like I need that, like I need the congratulations. You've survived.
Speaker 1:It's amazing you know I've spoken, I've spent literally all day today speaking to schools about implementation and various bits about mapper and and core and all the different elements of our platform, and I can hear the relief in people's voice. Maybe it's the relief of coming off a meeting from me, but I can hear the relief of people knowing that they're this close to the end. So I mean, I've been there, I've done it for over 10 years and it's graft, proper graft. So, yeah, congratulations. So I mean this is quite a personal one for me as well.
Speaker 1:We're talking today about middle leadership and I think it's a really interesting one. This because myself and I know a number of other middle leaders who stepped into that role and you've talked about this before we're never really given kind of that formal training. It's a little bit like football players good football players being given the job and then, you know, told to get on with it and and I think it's quite a vulnerable time for people, isn't it, when they step into a bit of leadership. So if I could just get a sense of what it was like for you and uh and and where you've come from and where you are now that I think that'll be really powerful of course.
Speaker 2:I think you just hit the nail on the head, though, where it is exactly like a footballer suddenly being given a promotion to being a manager. But just because you're a great footballer doesn't mean that you're going to be a great manager, and I think in schools, unfortunately, what tends to happen is you're a great teacher and you get great results, so we're going to make you head of department, and even then you might have a really great idea about what teaching and learning looks like in your department or in your subject area, but it doesn't mean you know how to implement it, and I think you know my journey specifically, and it makes me chuckle every time. I was in middle leadership for about 10 years and my first position of middle leadership I was head of PSHE, and I was 22, 23, full of enthusiasm, so passionate, really passionate about PSHE, and so excited to get this wrong, but honestly, it was a car crash. It was. It was a car crash. I had what I still think were really good ideas about what to do with PSHE and all these things that I was going to get everybody to do, but I was like a bull in a china shop and I had line management meetings and my line manager would just kind of say to me you know, what have you done? And I used to just list all these things that I've done and think that that was me getting a gold star because I've done all of these things. But actually, you know, I look back now and it makes me cringe.
Speaker 2:You know I was walking into classrooms of head of core subjects and saying why haven't you marched PSHE work, you know, and actually having conversations with them about why haven't you planned 26 slides for a PSHE lesson? Because it was important to me. So I just assumed it was important to everyone else. And I think the biggest thing that resonated with me was my intentions were really good, really good. My execution was awful and I didn't really have any sort of support or guidance or any kind of reining me in or giving me advice of how to do that. So my intentions almost is what got me in trouble. You know my desire for change, although it was for the right reasons, was really poorly executed and and actually I know we were earlier I've been at the same school now for those 10 years and I wear the scars of that. You know of that bull in a china shop from 10 years ago. I've had to wear those scars for 10 years and I've had to really really work to show that I'm not that person and I've learned from those mistakes and I think, as a result of all of that, that it's just made me really passionate about not wanting anybody else to have to go through that learning curve that I went through and actually saying to to senior leaders.
Speaker 2:You know, your middle leaders are the. I've read a quote once and we don't really know where it came from. We don't know if it was Tom Sherrington, but it was. Middle leaders are the engine room of any school and to me that just sums it up because you can be the best strategic senior leader in the world. But if your middle leaders can't implement what you're strategizing, then it's hopeless and it just it. It just frustrates me like I've got to be in my bonnet. Why aren't we training, developing and leading middle leaders into leadership?
Speaker 1:you know not, not their subject craft leadership as a skill and empowering them to, you know, to, to, to think about what they need at that time as leaders, rather than just oh, let's just do another teaching learning meeting about. You know what afl looks like today. But I think, being able to step back, and I think what I love there is that you, there's a real humility with what the way you talk about you know being a car crash and things like that. Because I'll be honest with you, when I stepped into it for the first time, I walked down the corridor. I'd wanted to be a middle leader for so long and all of a sudden I felt tiny. I felt who are these people? Why are they going to listen to me now and why is it that I'm suddenly supposed to be the expert in this?
Speaker 1:And I'll never forget the first time I looked at a tracker I mean, I live in trackers now but I thought, all right, then head to department, go and, you know, go and analyze the data and find out what. And I thought I've never been given any formal training on this. And so I think you're, I think you know the calling you hear is is right to be able to help middle leaders reflect on that. And obviously, leading PSA is an interesting one, isn't it? Because you're going into seniors and they matter to you but not to them. So in the last few years, what's been your biggest learning about before we move on to kind of what you've developed what's been your biggest learning in getting people to do what you want them to do? Do you think?
Speaker 2:It's such a brilliant question. I do think it's quite a personal thing, like, I think, for me, having done the pull in a china shop, you know, having been very open and honest and blunt at times about what I think needed to happen, one of the biggest things that I've learned is about listening and about vulnerability. I very much thought as a middle leader, you were supposed to, you know, lead from the front, and it's so funny I think it's the history teacher in me always pictures, you know, the king on the horse at the front with his sword in the air, saying, yeah, follow me into battle. And actually one of the things that I've realized is it isn't about having all the answers, it isn't about answering everybody's question. It's actually about being honest when you don't know the answer and being vulnerable and saying when you've got something wrong and you know. It's about people leadership.
Speaker 2:I talk about this quite often with our SLT. Leadership is, by definition, leading people. It isn't actually, you know, developing a subject area or it's leading people. It's getting people to trust you and to do what you need them to do, by listening to them and creating a culture where they feel valued, and that for me, talking to you now is something that I can honestly say. It's taken 10 years for me to realize, and something that I wish so much. I knew from the beginning and had been supported with learning from the beginning, because I would have done things a lot differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can now call to mind three people that I've worked with in my career, who you know Rachel Johnson, who's now the CEO of Filling Off of Pixel, who was my first head of department. Gary Lickisis, who is a deputy deputy at kettlethorpe, who's what I've just come from. And my current line manager, olivia samson, who's the co? Uh director of education and co-founder of bedrock. Three very different people, but three people who have played such a massive role in getting me to where I think you're somewhere close to where you're saying you're at now, where they, they coach. They don't give me the answers, they give me the right question and they stand back and let me. Let me do what I need to do and and it's you can't. You can't do the learning for people, and it's just about having correcting the conditions, and I know that we're we're sort of mid-euro fever at the minute with Gareth Southgate and I hope to goodness that we win on Sunday.
Speaker 1:Um, but I just think that guy is what that's leadership in terms of how he is with these players. I mean, I've I can get onto football with like, just like the next person, and I don't necessarily agree with all the decisions he's made, but putting that to one side, the leadership he shows his players and and the and the way they follow him. There's no leaks, there's no, there's no backstabbing in that camp. You can really feel that they are a cohesive unit and whatever happens on sunday and I mean this sincerely as someone who walked away from wembley four years ago when we lost that final on penalties I am so proud of this group of players and everything that they've achieved as, as young people, for this, for this country, and I think that I mean. Obviously, a leading in the English department is slightly different, but I think leadership and having people follow and whatever that means, is a real and I think he, I think Gareth Southgate, epitomises phenomenal leadership.
Speaker 2:But I couldn't agree more. But what I think is interesting for me to reflect on is so I go back again to the long time ago. The 22-year-old me and I knew that there were good leaders in sport, but I didn't know you could analyze leadership as a style and I feel quite embarrassed saying that now but I didn't know there was literature about leadership. I didn't know that you could go and pick up a book and it would teach you about leadership and in my opinion, honestly, there were still too few books about leadership within education available. And I think you know I'm writing a book to try and help to combat that and to support middle leaders. But I think what was interesting for me was I didn't even know that that field of literature was there and that I could turn to that for a support. And I turned to courses.
Speaker 2:I've done the MPQSL, I'm doing a level seven diploma now, but that's all later on in my career. You know, as a middle leader, my first stretch into middle leadership, I had absolutely no training, no knowledge of the fact that there was literature there to support me. You know, I had a vision. I had a vision of what I wanted to do and my answer to how are you going to execute that vision was I'm going to tell everyone they've got to do it, and if they don't do it, I'm going to tell them off. And oh, honestly, it makes me cringe now saying it, but it's totally true we live in a very different world now to you know, even the one.
Speaker 1:I think. To be fair to you, though, you'd probably grown up in a world where that's what leadership looked like to you as a, as a pupil, as a, as a person, a younger member of staff. But you look at we've just talked about it before you know, in terms, in terms of this has never been as hard in schools as it is now. The world has changed. Leadership styles in the current world, in the contemporary world, have changed, haven't they? The way that people lead now is different to the way that people led maybe 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, post pandemic and whatever, whatever that we put it down to. I think it's really difficult leadership now, because we live in such a complex world and I think on that, you know the retention and the recruitment crisis.
Speaker 2:We talk about this in terms of teachers in classrooms, but middle leaders oh my gosh, like middle leaders are either moving on to senior positions because they're available or they're entering middle leadership possibly a little bit too early, maybe before they're ready, and I think that just fuels my campaign even more, because you have got people in really important positions that just need a bit of guidance. And I think you know, 15 years ago you would go into middle leadership when you had a plethora of experience and you would have. Honestly, you know it's not an age thing, but you would have older middle leaders who have been in the position for 10 years and learned the hard way, a bit like I'm saying you know, I've done it for 10 years now. I feel like I've at least learned lessons and learned from my mistakes along the way. But I think now, with that recruitment and retention crisis, we have got younger, less experienced leaders stepping into middle leadership, absolutely capable and absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2:Some of the best middle leaders I know have got the least experience. But I think for me, ultimately, you don't know what you don't know until you know it, and for me. I didn't know how much there was to understand about leadership, and therefore I had no self-awareness of how much I didn't know. Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I do know exactly what you mean and I remember very early days people coming to me and I I'm still guilty of it now and I have to catch myself now. Um, I like to think of myself as a fixer. I can fix that problem. I can fix that, I can put that fire out. And my biggest learning as a middle leader was sometimes people just want a whinge yeah sometimes.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people just need what you know needs to be heard. Sometimes people have got something that you can do something about, and and and. Sometimes you just need to give people space to be able to figure out what the actual problem is. You know some, sometimes it's just venting, sometimes it's a fix, sometimes it's just a space to work out. Well, let's get behind it. And sometimes I feel it, sometimes when I work talk to Liv. Now, if I vent at her about something, it's almost irritating because she, rather than say yeah, that's terrible, that's terrible thing, it's almost irritating because she, rather than say yeah, that's terrible, that's terrible, she'll stand back and actually get me to think about well, no, what, what's the problem behind what you're saying? You know what's almost the antecedent, and that's a really important skill, I think. And whereas before, when in my early days, I would take every problem on and say, right, that's now my problem, that's now my problem, which leads to burnout and it's, it's not sustainable, is it?
Speaker 2:well, also think you've got to think it sounds like Liv is a great line manager, but who taught her to be a great line manager? Because the other thing to remember is all of our middle leaders are line managers themselves, and do we equip them for that? Do we teach them how to coach? Have they been coaches before they become middle leaders? And one of the very first books I read when I entered into this journey of trying to understand leadership and get better at it was David Marquet Languages Leadership, and I think I still refer to that book today as like my Bible, because it was tiny, tiny little things that I've learned and I've took with me through my career. Like don't start a question with why. The minute you say why to somebody, it's accusatory. It sounds like you've got an agenda, it sounds like you're accusing them of something you know. Just just try and reframe your questions so they start with what or how, and it's the tiniest thing in the world that you could literally pick up on a post-it note and I would honestly say it's changed the way I have conversations.
Speaker 2:I remember, as a middle leader, thinking again, understanding that part of my job was accountability and understanding that I needed to learn how to have a difficult conversation, and I hate that phrase so much. But at the time I was like right, difficult conversation. So I Googled it, because you know that's what you do. So I Googled how do you have a difficult conversation? And I remember a video from Andy Book who I think is outstanding, by the way, and amazing and I'm sorry to throw you under the bus, andy Buck, but I've got a point and I watched a video of Andy Buck talking you through how to do a difficult conversation and it was an acronym, nefertiti or something I think it was, and I remember writing it down in my book and being like right, so we do this, and then we do this, and then we do this.
Speaker 2:And I picked it off the page and I went and had a difficult conversation with someone using that structure and was like why didn't that go very well? Why did that not go very well? And again it was that lack of awareness that you can't have accountability until there's trust. And I just didn't know that. I was like I followed a framework. Why hasn't this worked?
Speaker 2:And you know, again, it isn't, until you come across ideas like radical candor and you start to understand that you have to really care personally about people, for them to be receptive and listen to your feedback and your. You know again I'm trying to avoid that phrase, that difficult conversation, but it ultimately is feedback and honesty about their performance. They have to believe that you're coming from a place of genuinely wanting them and believing that they can be better, for them to be receptive and listen. And again, you said to me at the beginning what really changed my career and actually that was revolutionary with me as a middle leader that idea of it. Doesn't matter what framework you use. You can't challenge people to be better at something if they don't think your intentions are good.
Speaker 1:And again, again, it's little things like that that I just wish someone told me 10 years ago exactly and you know, whenever um aaron who's our founder, you know says, can you give me a call, I'm probably 10 worried like about oh, I wonder what. But actually 90 of it, the vast majority of my feeling is actually a conversation with with him, for example, is never going to come from a place of threat. I know that fundamentally leaves in me to do the right thing. He knows that and actually he's doing the right thing. He's always got the, the young people, in terms of who who engages with bedrock at the heart of every conversation he has.
Speaker 1:It's always about the learner. It's always about the learner and I think if it comes from that place, you don't have a culture of fear and it took me some time to realize actually people need to trust you first and foremost as a human and that you won't throw them under the bus when, when it's convenient for you to do so. So I what I really wanted to because you mentioned about your middle leadership book, and we will, definitely I will I would love to get. I think what people would really like to hear about now is the program and is the system that you're developing right now in your school to develop that. I think leaders will have a lot to take away and think about what that might look like in their own settings. So can you talk me through what it is that you've done and what it is that you've developed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course I very much would call it an evolving process as well because, as is the case with everything, we've done something, we've evaluated and reflected on it and hopefully we've made it better. So next year will be year three of our Mastering Middle Leadership pathway. So we started, I would say, about two years ago, where we had this reflective moment where a lot of our middle leaders, who'd been stable middle leaders for kind of six, seven years, were moving on to get promotion and our middle leadership team was newer, less experienced and again you know we've just talked about the why in our conversation this realization that actually middle leaders needed a development program. So I actually based it on Adam Robbins' Middle Leader Mastery, which again is a really, really great book and it breaks down in chapters things like curriculum, teaching and learning, behavior, management, how to hold a meeting, and it's a great book. And I basically pulled that book apart and as part of directed meeting time on a Wednesday morning, we would focus on a chapter and everybody had an advanced schedule and everybody had a booklet and they had to read the chat. We bought everyone the book, so they had to go away and they had to read the chapter, answer some reflection questions and then we came back in a meeting where a member of the senior leadership team who led on that area would do a bit of a presentation and there'd be some discussion about the. The feedback questions and some who were really positive and you know you always have those ones, don't you, that love a bit of CPD and throw themselves into everything were great. But what I noticed was there was some that wouldn't do the booklet so didn't know what was going on and just kind of tried to fluff it a little bit. There was some that then would go the other way and had done the reading and had done the reflection questions but then were getting annoyed that they felt like the presentation was just summarising the chapter and therefore they were annoyed why they spent their time doing it.
Speaker 2:But one of the biggest things for me was I realised that our programme of middle leadership development wasn't hitting the right areas. Like we were talking to heads of department who were great teachers about teaching and learning in their areas and actually that really isn't what they needed. And we had heads of year sitting through curriculum conversations and, yes, it's grateful for the. You know it's great for them to have an understanding of curriculum and different types of knowledge, but ultimately that's not what they needed to listen to to become a better head of year. So after the first year we got a bit of feedback, um, from the middle leaders who'd completed that program and said you know what worked and what didn't.
Speaker 2:And the next year we approached it very differently. And actually what happened this year was we very much took the approach rather than running off one book. We summarized lots of different bits of education, evidence sorry, um and lots of different literature from um leadership. So you know, we took the simon cynics and leaders eat last and start with y and david marquet, languages leadership and amy edmondson, psychological safety and all these ideas that now you realize are so important to middle leadership. But that reflection of I just didn't know what they were 10 years ago and we crafted a program where we actually looked at issues that middle leaders face and maybe don't even know they're facing. So how do you craft a positive culture? How do you build a team and how do you approach your team if there's dysfunctions in your team?
Speaker 2:And we kind of pulled apart Patrick Lencioni and five dysfunctions of a team and actually, yeah, it's so vital, isn't it and we did. I tried to do it so that the sessions were really interactive. So, again, rather than it being quite onerous and you've got to read this first and you've got to do all this homework, it was more right. I'm going to summarize, kind of the key messages from this literature that you need to know and now we're actually going to apply it and we're going to dissect it and reflect on it during the meeting. So I remember doing Belbin's team members task and we did. I got the questionnaires and said like, like, right, let's reflect on what role do you play within your team at the moment? You know what? Are you a shaper? Are you a plan to you? And actually now reflect on what are the people in your team and and what are you lacking and how could you possibly plug that gap.
Speaker 2:And we did Lencioni's diagnostic questionnaires for each team and said you know what are the dysfunctions of your team?
Speaker 2:And then individually looked at well, what does he suggest to to do to solve those dysfunctions? And then what are you going to do and put them into practice? And I also ran it for aspiring middle leaders, which I think was, on reflection, really, really worked because that was completely voluntary, so it always had a bit of a nicer feel to it. And what's amazing actually, is those aspiring middle leaders are all now middle leaders here and I was on their interviews and they would talk about how they engage with these sessions and how they benefited from them, because we actually got like a really a really nice group where they would share their problems with each other and they would say, oh, mine's, you know, shown this and I'm really struggling with this person. And it was so nice as the confidence grew. After a couple of sessions, someone had turned around to them and say, oh, I thought that, but and you know, have you tried this because I did this, and it became like a really lovely, a lovely setting it's future-proofing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know it's that whole and you know we talk about all the time at bedrock in terms of. You know we have different elements the schools that we work with, um, the kind of the, the school facing teams we have to we all have a very different part of their journey when it comes to their literacy um agendas, and we've all got an equally important part to play in it. But we have to understand that we have to kind of work in symphony together to get that working. And applying that to a school context, though, one thing I would ask you at this point is the challenges of schools in recent years that they've had, you know, young people there is it's more challenging than it's ever been.
Speaker 1:Do you find that it's getting, that you're getting more staff saying yeah, but this is even more difficult because I've got, you know, the strain that my staff are under because of the behaviours that they're seeing in lessons and the emotional strain out there, because I certainly found that during the pandemic, people's emotional resilience was tested to its max and I'm seeing, and I just wondered, are you finding that in recent years, that there's almost it's it's more important but more more difficult to divert to deliver these kind of, these kind of programs honestly no, and I think what's I think what's interesting is a lot of like you, obviously, teacher tap do a lot of questions about teacher workload and teachers perceptions and how they feel at school, and actually a lot of the things that I've seen show that having a positive team and a positive culture is one of the strongest ways to try and counteract how difficult staff feel like their workload is.
Speaker 2:And staff wellbeing and obviously wellbeing is on every agenda, but you'll see it all over Twitter where people have put memes up saying wellbeing is more than cake Friday and it absolutely is. And again, I think one of the things that I've reflected on and learned as a leader is that if you've got a strong team built on trust and understanding, where you feel safe and you feel safe to talk and safe to share your ideas and you know that your colleague will support you with a behavior issue that you face, your well-being will be much higher. And I honestly think, I truly, truly believe that getting this right is how you will deal with teacher retention, because you will keep middle leaders if they feel like they've been able to craft and to cultivate a positive team who want to work with them, who have bought into a shared vision where they're all driving toward the same goals. And I think for me it actually exemplifies the need for this training even more, because this is the bit where you're head of department yes, I'm the head of teaching, learning and curriculum. Your head of department yes, I'm the head of teaching, learning and curriculum. I totally understand the importance of them putting great schemes of work in place and having a really clear pedagogy, and I'm not suggesting that that isn't important. But if you haven't cultivated a positive team, then they won't deliver your resources anyway because they won't buy into why it's important that they do that. So for me it's like the first step before anything else is that Off the minds? Yeah, and I read a section the other day and it was taught that they call it culture canvassing and it's that actually that agreement of what is your culture in your team and what are the values that you have and what are the values that your team has. And then what agreed behaviors have you got as a team? And I got my middle leaders this week to do a culture canvas and then to do it with their teams, because you know we've got staff turnover same as same as everyone else in the country and they've got new teams starting in September and for me, it is really driving that. So how are you going to create a team? How are they going to buy into your vision and understand who you are as a leader and your values as a leader? Because that's what you should be running on inset day, not hello, here's a new curriculum. You know it should be.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Danny Wally. I'm the head of department. This is what I stand for. This is what I'm going to give you. This is what you can expect from me. This is what I stand for. This is what I'm going to give you. This is what you can expect from me. This is what I expect from you. This is what we're all doing together and what we're driving for right. Let's work together on how we're going to do that.
Speaker 1:I think, but particularly because I think one of the key challenges that we face in teaching is that to be a good teacher, a good lesson and a good delivery and it is so bound with your own personality, it has to be, you have to impute it with your own personality. And so a challenge or a criticism, or a perceived criticism to someone's uh, performance in a classroom is it's easy to take things personally and I think welding a team together when everyone's in 10 different rooms down the corridor, I think it's a uniquely difficult challenge. You're not sat around a table at an office or in the same room, you know, together for six hours a day. You're all in silos by virtue of what literally the job is. So I think crafting that and crafting that level of trust is a really important thing, and articulating that you know if someone sends an email.
Speaker 1:I had a thing we had a behaviorist at my school and you could press a button and and you would get some support. But sometimes, if the systems were strained, I said to my team you use that first, but if you need me, you email me, it pings to me, I will get to you straight away, or one of my team will get you straight away. We're never more than two minutes away and I I think it's that level isn't it of trust that you need people to have in you?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I mean, I reflect. I took my most recent middle leadership role. I took on a faculty of which I hadn't been a part of before. This is a story for a different day, but previously I used to teach maths and I came over to the humanities faculty, so it was almost like being a new member of staff, even though it was in the same school.
Speaker 2:And you can imagine you know I'm carrying that baggage that I told you about from the bull in a china shop days and I was very much kind of put in with right Danny, they get the worst outcomes in the school and you need to sort it out. And I was really aware that I was being put into a team of which I was no subject expert and actually my instruction instruction was to improve results and it's like, well, you know how do you improve results of a subject when you don't actually know the subject or the exam board or what to do? And I made this active decision then that actually where I was going to make a difference was with people. That's where I was going to change this faculty and I remember my very first.
Speaker 1:Good way of thinking. It's clever.
Speaker 2:Well, I just I remember going in and and I also you know Owen Eastwood talks a lot in his book about belonging, where you have to respect the history as well, and as much as the history of that department wasn't a great one in terms of outcomes, I had to respect that it was there. And I remember saying to them, um, on my very first meeting, um, I'm going to have individual meetings with you and I've got three questions and I just want you to prepare an answer to these three questions. I want to have a one-to-one chat. And I said what do I need to keep the same? What are the fundamentals of this team that we shouldn't touch and we shouldn't change, because it's brilliant? And then I said, secondly, what should I change? What should I focus? What do you think would make a difference? And then the third one, which I think is the most important, is how can I help you, like, what are your career aspirations, where do you want to go and how can I support you in getting there? And I had these one-to-one meetings and I was open with team members about possibly their perception and reputation around the academy, but it was from a place of.
Speaker 2:I know that that isn't who you are and I'm going to help you to rectify that and I'm going to help all of us together be the best faculty and the best team that we can. And again, like I said before, this is what you can expect from me, this is what I expect from you, and I remember using the phrase constantly all the time we are positive and proactive all the time and if you think I'm doing something wrong, you come and tell me. You don't tell anybody else. You come and tell me because, as a member of my team, you're not going to let me fail. You're going to come and save me before I fall down and you're going to tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'm going to listen.
Speaker 2:And every time there was a situation or anything like that, we just went back to that phrase of we are positive and proactive and that's what we do in everything. And I sit now and I'm so proud to say that that faculty that I led, I think, are one of the strongest teams I have ever worked with and their results are greatly improved. There's a really, really low staff turnover and, yeah, I'm so proud of them. But I look back at how I was able to kind of cultivate change there and actually I didn't really do anything. They did it all that the head of departments drove the results and the teachers taught the children. All I did was really establish ground rules of how we work together to become a team but that's fundamental, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean people. I mean just going back to southgate, people say he's walked into a good team, isn't he? He's walked into it, you know he's, but actually no, I'm pretty sure. I mean I'm not sure. However, people are going to be listening to this who are england fans. I remember a bit 20 years. Oh well, we've got the golden generation. We've gone nowhere. We've gone nowhere. What they didn't have, for whatever reason, was a culture where they all basically lived, breathed and died for each other. They were fantastic and I think that I will call it high performance. Whatever it is. What you've said there is. I think you do yourself a disservice because you created the conditions for that to flourish. And I just think a lovely, lovely place to finish is those three questions. What a fantastic three questions. What needs to change? What stays the same? How can I help you get there? I think that's just the infusibility. It's great. I love that.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with what you've just said and I think, if you take that football analogy, you can have the best players in the world, but they have to want to play for you. If they don't want to play for you, you will lose every game. And again, it's a vital message. I think as well, if I just could, before we just wrap it up, andy, just as a step moving forward, that middle leader mastery program I talked about that's been evolving, just looking forward to next year. Just again as a tip, if it's useful to other middle leaders who think about this next year, actually, we're collaborating with other local schools and we're coming together to run a middle leader mastery program. So there's two other local schools in the area and we've said, right, well, let's do six sessions, we'll host two, you host two, they host two, everybody goes to everything. And then actually it encourages that networking and sharing good practice and sharing experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I think one of the things I will say with middle leadership is you can't be afraid that they'll leave. You have to try and make them the absolute best that they can be and hope that they don't want to leave. I'm so proud of that faculty. I told you I left and they haven't left. And they could. They're exceptional leaders.
Speaker 1:I remember years ago, speaking to Jenny Webb spoke to me about this and she said I remember years ago, speaking to Jenny Webb spoke to me about this and she said I remember her saying something along the lines of I couldn't give a stuff if I trained someone and they left and you know, because they went on to something bigger and they got promotion or whatever. Let's not be so scared about training people. So they go for promotions and they go because actually it's about putting someone fantastic into the ecosystem and what you're giving you know, and all that stuff. So I think that's a really important thing to say is about it's about and what I love about you said there about it's not just about your team in your in your school, but it's about your school in the wider community and that wider community in the wider world. Like that's what this all needs to be about, and I think this view of leadership is what we should be encouraging.
Speaker 1:And, uh, I mean, I mean I could easily go for another half an hour. It just that was fantastic. And let's get you back on when the book is close to close to publication. Um, what a fantastic guest. Thank you so much for coming on oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I've loved it again, so thank you so much we'll speak to you soon.
Speaker 1:We'll have you on soon. Bedrock living legend, danny wally. Thank you so much. We'll speak to you soon. We'll have you on soon. Bedrock living legend, danny Wally. Thank you everyone for listening. Keep going, and nearly there to the summer. Thank you everyone.
